My nipples are completely flat. How am I going to nurse? We're not nipple feeding. We're breastfeeding. Talk to your baby. Like, talk to your baby about their birth process and let them know it's painful. And they're like, I don't like this. I don't want to do this. Each breast did something specific for that child. And she gave me a big hug and she said, "Thank you, Dr. Olga, for saving my child." And they're only drinking water and eating cuz they need to make milk, not cuz they thought about themselves. They're still bleeding for goodness sakes. One visit. Oh, and she got her to the breast. Welcome to the Ask the Dentist podcast with Dr. Olga Dogear, where your smile meets your overall health. I'm very excited and thrilled to introduce both of you, my guests at my podcast, Ask the Dentist, where I invite different specialties, and I love to have conversation about what we do. So, I going to start with Nikki since you're next to me first. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Uh so Nikki uh is a registered nurse in IBCLC which is internationally boardcertified lactation consultant. Also I found out that you are specialized in intensive care help for infants. Right. Yes. So that's amazing. And my second guest is Dr. Renee Thompson. Yeah. Um she is a chiropractor and both of my guests today are actually business owners. Yes. Which is a very big thing because we are all female business owners, right? So there's a lot of up and downs. We know how it's true. Yes. But uh we're supporting each other. That what matters. Yeah. Absolutely. And uh Nikki is a founder of uh Gentle Actation Touch. consultation for IBCLC for technically for babies to help with nursing and Renee is a founder I love the name of your practice. Thank you. Um Agape, right? Uh family chiropractor. So Agape, I looked it up. It's a god of love, right? Yeah. Unconditional love. Unconditional love. When I looked I was like, "Oh my god, what a great name." Yeah. So there's five, it's Greek and there's five types of love according to the Greek language. And so that one means unconditional. So for us, um that unconditional every time we see our sign, say our name, answer the phone, it reminds us that when a family calls in, our point, our our goal is to meet them where they're at, to serve them, to love them, and to help give them a hope and a future. And if that's with our help, great. And if that's referring to other providers they need in their life as well, then we'll do that. So, we're meeting them where they're at. I love the name. I love it. So, let's talk about why what unites us. So, um believe it or not, we are facing challenges as moms, as doctors. And uh I remember being mom myself for the first time. Yeah. Um, which was 25 and a half years ago when I had my first one. Looking good, mommy. Good. I have on my head. How many years? Don't worry about it. But I have a question. Um, I had no idea that there's a support for moms. So my question, first question would be because I know urine is uh Webster certified, right? there's a special certificate for prenatal care for moms. Um, and I remember being myself a very young mom. I was barely 24 years old and I had no idea uh what to do, how to do. I remember that little infant they brought to me and they would try to nurse. I I remember struggling for a little bit and they gave me a formula right away. How is it now, Nikia? Are they still doing the same thing in the hospitals? They do. We really want to encourage breastfeeding. Um we focus on um first latch. The golden hour is really really important. So when I do prenatal visits with my moms in my office, it's one of my favorite things to do. We really focus. I'm I talk to them about what to expect at labor, what to expect after delivery, the golden hour, the breast crawl, that initial one hour that you get. I always say ask everybody to go out of your room. This is your moment to bond with your baby and your partner and have them be with you and you watch the baby do their own breast crawl. The a lot of people don't realize that the initial when you um when the baby's born that the Montgomery glands on the areola secretes amniotic fluid scent and it's what makes the baby have that first amazing latch. Oh my goodness. That's one of the things we always focus on and and in my prenatalss, that's one of the things we go over so many different varieties of things of positioning and and that first latch and the breast crawl and the golden hour. And I try to empower moms going into delay into labor and delivery so they feel like they have a little bit more basis and they're not so scared and not understanding what to do on that first latch. First first time. Yeah. And Arena, you help moms who are expecting to. So your beginning is before baby was born before before. What does that certification you have? What what does it provide? Yeah. So actually when we look at that we're actually thinking even preconception if possible which sounds kind of funny but um really for mom if we're looking at fertility we also want to make sure that um about 3 months before she tries conceiving she's looked at her lifestyle supplementation her sleep patterns whole foods water to be sure that um when she ovulates she's actually you know dropping the best egg we joke about it like giving the best egg the best genetic potential she can for that baby and so we're having this beautiful healthy rhythm of cycling and hormones and that takes at least 3 months giving the best egg. Um, and then supporting mom with chiropractic care through her pregnancy. So that does a few things. The big thing is it keeps her nervous system more clear, more balanced. She can feel less in a fight orflight state and more calm. So that's really supportive of her, really supportive of baby. And then if we think very simply like even just structurally in the pelvis if there's any rotation or torsion in the pelvis that will actually twist or torque on the uterus on the round ligaments cause SPD lightning crotch like any woman who's had that when I say those words they know exactly what I'm talking about right um but that allows space for baby to have the best positioning what I find with a lot of babies postirth who come out with tension and then in addition might have oral ties or uh tethered tissues. Then um if I'll I'll commonly ask the mom if they're stuck in one pattern, were they always on one side of your pelvis? You know, if I had seen your pregnancy, were they always stuck on one side? And they're like, how'd you know they were always in my right hip? You know, they were born sunny side up or all these things. And so we're actually working then with inner uterine constraint issues that maybe kind of developed with in addition potentially to any any oral tie issues. And that that just compounds the the issue for the little ones. So everything starts way before we already have a baby, right? Wow, that's amazing. So we provide this whole whole kind of support and care. I know how important it is on my side uh to talk to mom to give them advice how important lifestyle like you mentioned is for oral health and for overall health. Exactly. Because everything is interconnected. I think there is such a big kind of compartmentalization right in our healthcare in general that um I love that we can kind of look at the big picture nowadays and kind of unite everything. Yeah. Yeah. So after baby was born um what kind of help we can do for moms Nikki? What what what can you provide? When do you see um babies for the first time with mom? I love to see the baby within like two to three days after two to three days. Yeah. Two to three days after being discharged from the hospital. Um as much as the lactation consultant at the hospital or the nurses at the hospital want to provide the best care they can, a lot of times they're short staffed and it's just how life is. That's how hospital life is. So, I like to get to them as soon as possible so that I can build a a foundation for them, help them um to get a better basis, a positioning, find out why things are hurting or if they are hurting, right? It's usually um typically people that come to me, they're saying their latch is hurting, they're having pinched nipples, they are struggling getting the baby in a right position, the baby is fussy, um we're seeing all these things, won't get won't open their mouth wide, they're having sucking blisters. So, those are things that I'm looking at. And that's why I love having the whole interdisciplinary team of you, Dr. Olga, and Dr. Renee because we see the baby as a whole and we see mom as a whole dad. Yeah. So we we we treat all of them together and I think our uh pediatric care team that as I call us all is um I think is I you I think our foundation really helps and I love the words when I I will do an initial consult and one of the things I do is I look for tethered oral tissues. If we have all of these symptoms going on, body tension, lip um sucking blisters on the lips, we are having a narrow gape, they're not opening their mouth, mom ends up with lipstick nipples, looks or the pinched nipples, right? Painful latch, um a fussy fussy baby, a baby that hates the car seat, all of these things. Or if I ask the my trick question with parents is, does your baby take a pacifier? And it's typically, "Oh, no, he doesn't like it." that tells me that they're probably not elevating their tongue and they're not able to cup their tongue. So, and it's the last thing I look at. I look at latch and everything else first and then I look at the uh I do a full functional oral assessment to see what's going on and then that's when we definitely refer over to Dr. Renee to have baby worked on a little bit of body work to see if the fashcia can be helped and the the condiles and everything else working to get that baby smoother and having you assess oral restrictions and just seeing my favorite phrase after frenctomy postrec even an hour after post frennectomy and having body work is is this what latch is supposed to feel like my favorite statement And I and I don't know how many times I've cried with moms because they start crying because the baby latches and we start seeing just a beautiful jog lighting and tongue cupping and I'm doing oral habilitation prior to getting them ready. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Uh let's focus on common questions. Okay. Okay. Sometimes we get questions from mom very untraditional e even new moms who planning to have a baby. Um can everybody nurse or is there anatomical challenges? For example, I get the flat nipple question a lot from friends like my nipples are completely flat. How am I going to nurse? I'm not going to be able to nurse because my nipples are flat. Let's talk about nipples or inverted. Yeah. Right. I had a good friend in Colorado. She literally struggled so much with that because she had completely had inverted nipple and she even was saying that I'm like this is not my field. It was a couple years ago. I don't know how to help. Yeah. I think the biggest thing that people need to realize and remember is we're not nipple feeding. We're breastfeeding. Breast. So we're aiming to pull the nipple and the areola into the mouth. If we can get a wide gape, the the uh the tongue cupping, the body loose, and we have extension in the baby's neck, and we get we lead in with the chin, we should be able to get a baby breastfeeding. Breastfeeding. Gotcha. Gotcha. What about when you see um this mom with a new baby for the first time? Yeah. Um we do like to see them sooner than later. So in that first to second week of life is a really good time to just check just assess. There's so much that happens like I said even just um when they're in uterero and we all know like those ties in the mouth are forming from early early on. They're fully fully present by 20 weeks. So by the time a little one is born um I think it's always really important to talk to parents about the fact that those ties have been present in their little one for 20 about 20 weeks plus or minus a little bit. So, it sounds kind of funny, but these fresh little ones who just came out, they have an existing pattern. And so, we need to retrain that pattern. Um, and so, as far as like getting to the breast and latching and moving, there are certain things as a chiropractor, especially in the infant or pediatric patient, um, that we look for. And that type of assessment, that type of adjustment is very, very different than how an adult gets adjusted. So, um, if people are only familiar, right, that's a good idea to explain because I'm sure you get a lot of questions like if you've for babies, I know I'm like, yeah, we're not just swinging them around by their toes. So, um, for first of all, like if you've ever been to a chiropractor and you're an adult, um, and that's what you're familiar with with chiropractic care, it's just it's not that for a baby. It's it's exactly what it should be. It's baby size and it's baby specific and um, there's no more pressure than you put on your eyeball. It doesn't look like a lot. It doesn't need to look like a lot. There's no thrust or pop or click. Um, we really enter their nervous system very less to more. So, it's not overwhelmed. A lot of the babies we see tend to be in a fight orflight state. So, yeah. Signs of that are like they're holding their head up early right after birth and inevitably someone's like, "Oh, they had such a strong neck." And I'm like, "Ah, they were just in zero gravity. Nothing should be strong." or look at them rolling over or look at them roll to their side or their hands are tight or you know but they can't or they're arching well then they can't like get close and snuggle in and feed and then their hands don't relax when they feed and why are they so tense when they're b born some of the babies yeah some of the babies go through a lot during their birth process in all in all reality you know some of them aren't aren't positioned well or they got stuck in the canal or maybe potentially mom could have been moved around a little more in labor but she was stuck in one position and so baby had a hard time getting stuck. If they have a shoulder or gdane down the canal. If they have a shoulder dystocia and they get their shoulder stuck on the way out. If their head was tipped or tilted. If they came through the canal really fast or if they were in there a really long time. So any extremes in life. Yeah. Vacuum forceps everybody. That's it's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. Birth and moms know that. I mean moms know that. We go through that. We feel all that pressure and baby's doing that with their head and you know and and really to a certain degree that that should be what happened. That little cranium should be squeezed and then fluffed back out and that's a nice you know set for their nervous system. It activates it on the way out. Just wakes everything up. It's beautiful. And then we take this beautiful big breath and all these rhythms begin in the body and it's lovely. But sometimes it can get hung up on the way and that little cranium that gets squished on the way out. Maybe part of it gets fluffed back out but part of it gets wedged. Okay. So certain things we see that affect latch that way are things like the temporal bone. If it's internally or externally rotated that'll actually pull the jaw to one side. So with occlusion, it'll actually set it to the side. Teeth on that side actually wear more. You'll see the nose even kind of pull that direction a little bit. You see, I didn't know that as a dentist. That's good for me to because I see a lot of cross bites and sometimes you see them early. Yes. Yes, like I see one year old and they're already not symmetrical, right? Or that bite strength is different on one side or the other or the frontal bone actually if you look at a little one's forehead, the the middle of their forehead is actually an open suture. It's the topic suture. And so that the forehead actually behaves early on as two bones. So if one of them is kind of rotated forward or back, um that actually will affect jaw occlusion as well, like the strength of of closing your mouth. But watch those babies because when they yawn, that jaw will deviate to one side or the other. Well, if we're trying to suckle and I open their mouth and it goes one way and I try to close my mouth and it's not strong or it pulls to one side, right? Or I can't tuck my chin or I can't extend my head or my head's always turned one direction, you know, if you even try to turn your head and swallow. Oh, yeah. Like that's difficult. So these poor little ones when they come out if they have any of these little roadblocks in their nervous system then they then we can't get to that. What about C-section babies? Same thing. Do we say see any difference between C-sections babies and it the same thing they how long they sat in the pelvis? How long have they been there? Same idea. Um I had an example of um a patient that we just experienced Dr. Renee and I I don't know you you're you don't think about this. Um this baby was a 35 week and was spent quite a bit of time just in some time in the NICU and came to me and she was very angry. She was in that fight or flight and we tried the skin-to-skin. She was absolutely refusing the breast. We did baby wearing and we did so baby wear with mom exposing her breast and we have baby trying to latch. She was not having any of it. And I got her in to Dr. Renee and the mom called me back. She goes, "One visit and she got her to the breast." She's like, "She breastfed after seeing." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." So, we continued and now this mom is exclusively breastfeeding. And I had a couple of visits with her and I just said, "She's in the fight or flight and we need to get her into the rest and digest mode." and just one visit of very gentle uh work with her and it was amazing and I just love seeing I love seeing our team all three of us as teamwork and seeing the changes that we're doing for moms and babies. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I love that actually cuz when Nikki refers someone in, the strategies she gives them at home before they would even come in and see me are very complimentary and very helpful. So when that baby walks in the door, they've already learned a little safety of touch. Like you were asking about the C-section or even forceps or vacuum. That does put a little one's nervous system into fight or flight. Now, when we talk about these things, we have to be really careful, too, because most of the time when we use those interventions, it's literally to save baby's life or mom's life or both. So, but it's hard. It's hard on a mom to to think about that, too. And mom guilt hits really hard and really fast. And so we have to be able to let some of that go and be like, you know what? Okay, I recognize that, but half of that isn't actually reality. You know, there's no fault here, but we have to still train the baby baby's nervous system afterward that like this this world can be safe. You can be touched even if there's a spot from the vacuum. Even if their first touch in the world was cold forceps or someone entering the womb for a C-section where psychologically baby's not prepared to be touched in the womb until they come out. So they can perceive that as danger. And so we want to again bring them out of that fight orflight state. And I always encourage mom talk to your baby like talk to your baby about their birth process and let them know baby we tried all these things and then eventually like we just needed to get you safe and get you out and so this is what we did. And honestly that actually calms baby system down as well. So again not just thinking of one thing but looking at that whole picture what happened, how it happened. Yeah. So it's it's more complex. It's not just the thighs in the mouth, right? It's not just structural. Much more than just structural anatomical like the skin on skin. Nikki was talking about having that oxytocin release and that calming and that snuggle like that helps baby be like, "Okay, I'm safe. I'm safe, but I'm still stressed. I'm still stressed." And then we help remove that stress. What's very cool is when those babies do so well and they do so well so quickly, I always remind mom that's them, right? Like I don't heal anybody but me. Like we don't like when you cut your finger like the band-aid that didn't heal you, you did. You know what I mean? And it's good to put it in a safe environment, but you healed it. And you know, so it's neat when these little ones do better. It's like, okay, that's your that's your real little one. The screaming, the collic, the discomfort, the gas, that's not really them. What you're seeing now is like the true their true self. And those are symptoms. That's one things that always always drives me crazy is when we get a pediatrician or somebody that comes back and says, "Well, your baby um has collic." Well, is that a symptom or is it a diagnosis? Right? Because when we release from we have body tension release. We have uh and one of the things I see almost every time when there's a release of oral restrictions um from you they what we see is reflux. It seems to typically get worse but then it gets better. And what's happening is that body goes from that fight or flight to the rest and digest and the body adjusts and you start seeing hiccups go away instantly. You see the reflex go away and then you and then you have these parents are like well my I was told to be put on medication for it. Yeah, we see it all the time history medication or switching from nursing to completely different kind of formula or take them off because they're your breast milk isn't Yeah. And but when we work together and we support the moms, then they just they feel like it's not them. I think like when you have an when you have a baby that's tense and they're they refuse to latch. Mom is thinking, "Oh, he doesn't want me." That is absolutely far from the truth. That's far from the truth. And I always tell parents, the mom, I'm like, "I promise you when you do skin-to-skin, he doesn't push you away. He's just having to learn how to latch and to work and connect. It's not But when he's skin-to-skin, he's very calm. So, we just we have to take that approach that when like you said, it's not it they're true them is when we connect and we find what's happening. We don't ignore like using a nipple shield because the baby can't latch. That's just a tool and we don't want that tool to progress and stay. We need to find out why. What's the root cause of something? What's the root cause of of of collic? What's the root cause of your baby not latching? Is your baby in this forward flexed position? That's tension, right? So, we need to we don't eat in a in a hunched over position. We eat open. The positioning I think is such a big big part of us. Yeah. Because a lot of times when you have baby for the first time, you just kind of adjust to it, but you don't have this big thinking process. Right. I have moms that come to me on their fourth child, they've never had lactation, and they're like, "Why didn't I know this before?" Absolutely. That's how I felt. I love And it's funny because I'll have moms come, I'm like, "What are you going to teach me about lactation?" You know, because I'm like, "This is your fourth." But then you'll be surprised even just uh pumping how the flange is completely wrong and how it's painful for a mom to pump but we can make it so much better and make it more comfortable. Explain us about that because that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. Very interesting. Yeah. So when moms are pumping you if if necessary if we can't get a baby to latch or we have a mom that's got to go back to work so they need a pump. So, your big beautiful pump comes with uh these very large flanges. It's all about marketing. So, it's about well, if we do it too big and it doesn't fit, you have to buy a smaller size, right? It's all about Yeah. That's how it is. So, these poor moms don't know. They're like, "Well, it comes with a 24 mm or a 28 mill." I've never put a mom in a 28 mm ever. It's a waste of plastic. So I moms think that that's the size they're supposed to fl they're supposed to work with. Well, it's only supposed to have your nipple gliding into the into the tunnel gently and it's not supposed to have areola going down the tunnel. So moms don't know any better. They're getting sore nipples, chap nipples, and they are getting and it's painful and they're like, I don't like this. I don't want to do this. So when they come to me, we size them and we size their nipple and their base or their nipple. we it's all about is it comfortable and what is your output right that's what pumping is about it's not about making sure and the other thing I just popped into my head is I always tell moms stay off of social media stay off of the mommy and me groups because inevitably you're going to see the mom that shows look at my 80 ounces I pumped today and it is oh or my picture is that the competition well I They just they just don't know any better. And these moms are comparing with somebody else. And these moms that are over supplying, they are putting themselves into over supply and inflammation. And what these moms aren't showing on social media are the clogged ducts and possibly mastitis. They're not showing that side of it, right? So these moms are like feeling inadequate. 25 to 35 ounces in a day is average. And you should be patting yourself on the back for every drop, every ounce. Even if you only are giving a few ounces a day, that's immunities you're giving your baby. That's everything you're growing, giving them for their brain growth, their their body, their nutrients, right? Yeah. So, it I always tell moms, be proud of yourself for everything you're doing. But that's another thing that I do at my at gentle touch lactation. The biggest thing I do is I'm making sure that moms are comfortable, their mental health is protected. That's another big topic because mental health, we don't realize as mothers that we might have a problem, right? Postpartum. Your mental health, it always comes first with me. We want you happy and well-rounded so that the rest of your family can be happy and wellrounded. Yeah. Yeah. And I just I just want to think about like what you said about the immunity with the breast milk and pumping and all of that and you know having some freezer stores and having backups that that's a good idea. I mean you should have some but we we also have to recognize in that that when a baby's nursing at the breast that's a two-way street. There's a saliva exchange, right? Absolutely. So um there's a couple different ways we make antibodies and help hand over immunity for our baby to support their immune system with our breast milk. One is you kiss them, right? You chew on them, you kiss them, they're delicious. I think that's why women actually think children are like delicious and they're like, "I'm gonna eat you for breakfast." The smell best ever. But like, but but women are like that more than men. And I think that's a given instinct to us to like kiss your baby because then your body will make immunity in that milk. So, right. So, if you don't think something if a baby's delicious, then something's off. But the saliva saliva at the at the breast, there's a two-way street. So, I just think this is miraculous, right? Like when a baby nurses, your body tests, does a little lab test right at your breast specific to that child. So in that next 24-hour period, your body is going to make the right amount of antibodies for whatever they're fighting. They're going to make the right amount of vitamin D, vitamin K, proteins, fats, you know, all these beautiful things that baby needs, probiotics, all of that. Customized customized custom for that baby. And actually there's very cool imaging and studies where like um I remember seeing a picture once of a mom who was uh nursing her twins and she had a breast per twin and one of them was fighting a cold wasn't feeling well and she pumped. Well the kid who was feeling well beautiful creamy yellow thick rich breast milk. Other kiddo same woman same pump different breast green. Oh boy. Well that kid needed something different for what they were fighting. And I just think that speaks even extra to the amazingness of a female's body that each breast did something specific for that child, right? So we have to remember that if we're have, you know, 80 ounces in a few months, that's not a that's not a bad thing. Also, you know, maybe take a nap, you know, give yourself a break, you know, but some women there's so much, you know, production happening. But we have to remember that that two-month old, that three-month-old, if we're saving that milk till they're eight or nine months old, that's different. that eight or nine monthth old need for fats, for proteins, for all that is different than what you need at the two or three months. So, you want to mark the age. And sometimes I'll I'll tell parents to mark where did they have sinus congestion? Did they have a cough? Were they pulling out an ear? Make yourself a note cuz if you pull that out in the future and you're going back to work and that little one's congested, you know what? And you have to pull some milk out, pull out the one that maybe has some antibodies to help with that later on. That's so cool. The other thing with that too is one of the things I always tell families is that um direct breastfeeding is breastfeeding. Pumping for your baby and bottlefeeding is breastfeeding. I always tell them to let that sink in. It is breastfeeding. It is breast milk going to your baby. And if you are pumping exclusive pumperiva and put it on your breast and into your nipples, it's going to go into your breast and help change the microbiome as needed. Wow. The saliva of the baby. Saliva of the baby. Yep. Swab their mouth, put it on your nipple area pump, and do that at least once in a 24-hour period. But if you can do it a few times, even better. Yep. Few times throughout the day. Yep. and you're so when we're pumping without the baby, our body doesn't know. We're not getting that saliva, right? So I always tell families, but so there's a feedback saliva and I So that's why I always tell parents, you are moms, you are breastfeeding, but I want you to to take that saliva and help that microbiome change. Wow. That's that's interesting how body amazingly come up and we can do feedback loop on that. That's that's very cool. Um and after baby is born I know mom can go herself through amazing stress I think dislocation of oh you name it you name it everything could be yeah could be anything. Yeah. And the common belief women just have to go through it and is suck it up. Doesn't matter if your hip is hurting and you're not walking straight and now laughing and peeing your pants. Right. Right. So normal. We're told

it is not. But it is not. No. Right. One of my Yeah. biggest irritations honestly is when women are told, "Oh, you're pregnant. Just wait. Just wait. It gets worse. Like somehow we're told we're supposed to fall apart. And I'm like, it's actually the exact opposite. We grow humans. I know. That's amazing. That's miraculous, right? It's a superhero power. We we grow other humans and then we feed them from our body. You know, we shouldn't be miserable or falling apart. Now, granted, like, yes, relaxing levels are going to kick in. Um there will be different pressures and stresses on our body. Our center of gravity will change, but we're also made to be able to do that. So, if we're supporting that system and from earlier on the better, then then all of those transitions are smoother. They're easier. I've literally it was years and years and years ago, but I um had a woman come to me, one of the first times it really hit me in the face was when she said her sixth pregnancy, sixth. Sixth, was actually more comfortable than her first. And I was like, because she was under chiropractic care. Oh. And she wasn't with any of the other five. Yes. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like I just was like this poor woman has done this five times and didn't know she could be this comfortable or functional. Mhm. So again like like and and it depends on what we what did we accumulate in our life, right? Um what chiropractors take care of in the spine, what can interfere with the nervous system. It's called a subluxation. And so our primary subluxation is usually formed before 2 years of age. After that anything else is compensatory in the spine. Oh wow. So, so through that, you know, we run, we jump, we fall. Like, we learn to walk and we fall aund times a day. You know, you roll off the couch or fall off your bike or climb a tree and tumble, whatever it is, sports, you know, we accumulate stuff. So, one day as an adult, you lean over to pick up a pencil and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't stand up. It was just a pencil." And I'm like, "It wasn't just the pencil, you know?" So, and of course, like we don't, right? or we take all of that into our pregnancy and we have all these changes through our whole body which are beautiful but we don't have the adaptability and our nervous system wasn't ready to to fully support that you know and so we want to make sure that a woman's body is ready and has that support um you know from as early as possible and that helps her and that helps her baby that extends to her family that extends to her birth process and to her recovery. So, we always tell women um post birth, you come in as soon as you feel comfortable. Soon as you feel comfortable leaving the house. I've had women be like, "Hey, I I I'm on my way. We are leaving the hospital." Or I've had women, you know, where we go to their birth and we adjust during labor. Midwives have called and said, "You know, we're stalled out. Can you come check the sacrum?" And we do, and then, you know, a little bit later, labor keeps going. Um or adjusted them at home post birth because that's what we had set up for them ahead of time. Um because a lot of women have back pain after birth and pubic pain and then transitioning into nursing. We get neck upper back which affects nurse from the upper back affects breast tissue health. There's definitely cranial work we do that affect affects hormonal systems um for even prolactin like from the pituitary gland. And so we want to look at that um and keep all that supported and functional. Usually we hear from women after they're adjusted one I can breathe. I can stand up my upper back feels better. My neck is more relaxed, you know, because we're trying to get this baby feeder pulling them on, right? Absolutely. And so Nikki walks them through these beautiful postures, too, to be able to feed and like do some reclined feeding or sideline or, you know, bringing them up to you, all those good things. And so that's wonderful. But yeah, helping with that helps. But we do hear a lot of women say, "Oh, like in the middle of the night, like we can naturally kind of engorg a little more, have this swell of milk." And usually at night, they're like, "Oh my gosh, I got adjusted. middle of the night, man, like three o'clock in the morning, they're like, "Boom." Beautiful. It's not every time, but it is supportive and so it's great. Like that's encouraging. And then they're like, "I did it." You know? So, it's great. Yeah. That's wonderful. It's very cool. Yeah. And so, the women who, for example, struggle after birth, they can see chiropractic care and that's what definitely readjust and help them. Yeah. And for their pelvic floor. And for the pelvic floor, you want to come back together and heal the right way the first time. And at 6 weeks, we are not done with that. we're just done bleeding and we have no infection. But that doesn't mean postpartum is over, right? It takes time and as long as you're nursing, your relaxing levels are still high. Um, but in our society, we like nursing, then we have to go to work, then come back. And a lot of women losing milk, right? Is that very common? Stress. Is it stress? Stress. Yeah, stress. And then Yeah, stress. And if they go back to work, they don't get the opportunity to pump as often. I always tell moms, pump when your baby would be eating at home if you can possibly do that. That's when we get into different styles of pumps and I work with them on that to make it easier for them but make sure it's still a functional pump to keep up with their milk. Yeah. Yeah. That timing is important working with your employer and and we watch for that too with moms who are under care. Um what is their stress level? Are they sleeping? We check on them like even if they're not a patient but baby's coming in. Mom's obviously an extension of that. Um but we but we check on them you know and if they are under care we're going to we're going to check as well but like hey how are you sleeping? How are you eating? Are you getting minerals? Are you getting food? Is someone feeding you? Like someone should be bringing you food you know. And then um what are some strategies or some ways that you can help that we can help with that? You know because it can feel like a lot. And like Nikki said the timing of the pump is also important. Yeah. Yeah. the timing, their stress, making again going back to their mental health. Um I make sure that I have um a counselor, a perinal counselor also that I refer to, making sure that mom's taking care of themselves, making sure that they know that they're not alone, that that point actually so many moms you see and they're overwhelmed. I feel like I'm talking people off the ledge all the time and it just it's okay. It's okay to cry. This is a safe place in my office, you know. Absolutely. But when I find that um their anxietyy's, you know, a little extra high or their their affect is a little bit flatter, I'm making sure that we are getting follow through with um amazing care with counseling as well. With counseling that's very important. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And recycle going back to what unites us. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. thighs. Um what do you re there is a common belief Dr. that um thighs every muscle surrounded by fascia right and tongue is surrounded by fascia as well and those fashions are interconnected can you elaborate on that can you explain the t because when we release when I one of the moments I had a probably sevenyear-old boy and I released his tongue he was extremely tongue tied like tip to the ridge technically complete ti at seven and parents were a little bit reluctant to begin with. Um and then when I showed them he literally could not cross vermillion border of the leap. I was like I have to do it. Let's do it. And we released and there was interesting reaction on the kid. He took a deep breath kind of stretch stretched out a little bit and took a deep breath and said I feel better. And you know seven years old is this cute age when they can communicate with you because you don't know like two year olds may not tell you or infant we can know with mom but for seven year olds. So that was interesting experience for me personally. I'm like huh and he actually kind of stretching stretched out his neck after that moved his head. So for me it was interesting to observe like what exactly um so explain us how fascia works. This is your field. Yeah absolutely. Yeah totally. So um it's kind of funny because we talk about different like lines of fashca in the body or planes or so there's front line back line spiral all kinds of things. So but but it actually is one big piece. So how I explain it to patients usually when they come in is that your fashcia is like one big piece through your whole body like saran wrap like a big piece of plastic wrap right so even if you wiggle your pinky toe if I hold one end of my shirt and the other end of my shirt and wiggle it around or side to side opposite even if I wiggle my pinky toe everything in my body all that fashcia should respond. So the joke with fashca is it's one big piece and you tucked in muscles and organs okay just tucked it into little pockets in there. Mhm. So, um, if I'm pretend again I'm holding each end of my shirt and I'm twisting it opposite directions. If I put two fingers in the middle of my belly, right, and I pin those down, that's like a tongue tie or a lip tie. And so now when I try to move that shirt, I have an anchor. They behave like a fascial anchor, especially to your front line of fashcia. So, what we want to do is if possible, try to get some of the torsion and twist out of the top and bottom of that shirt. Um, how we do that as a chiropractor is we look through the body at all the fashca, but especially the really thick fashca, it's called dura that wraps around your brain and goes down into the spinal canal. We want to make sure there's no torsion or twist in that because that's affecting your whole nervous system. We want to reduce that. Then if we need to remove those ties out of the way, right? There there are some things in the cranium and in the mouth and in the nerve splied in the mouth that can actually tighten the muscles of the floor of the mouth that can actually mimic a posterior tongue tie. Right? So we want to make sure that's functional. or when they come in to have a release with you, if they need a little roll behind their neck and we're gonna extend the neck and we're going to open the jaw. We want to make sure they have all the accessibility to that, we can so that it's easier for them to have the release and they they they recoil less afterward. So, but sometimes we need to remove those anchors and move them around. And some when I send people into a consult with you, I'm like, "Listen, here's what I'm seeing. Here's what I'm finding. I think this is where we're at. um I'm going to send you to this person also because she doesn't laser everybody who walks through the door because not everyone needs a relation needs. So, but we're going to work on some function. We're going to get some support and those babies already start feeding better. They're more comfortable. They're less hiccupy colicky. They sleep better. And then when they do the release, it's easier. It's smoother. And again, they recoil less and they transition better to learning to use their tongue. We're also restoring nerve supply to the area in the mouth and the, you know, that parastoaltic wavy motion of the tongue. We want to make sure that's working properly. And so, so I usually tell them fashca, you know, big saran wrap piece, it gets torsioned, it gets pinned or an anchored down, and we need to remove the anchors and then retrain that pattern. Yeah. Yeah. That being said though, I always want to remind people when we're retraining that pattern, it takes time. And Nikki uses this verbage and I love it. It's a process. It's a process. It's not a procedure. It's a process. It's a process. That's a good one. Yeah. I always tell parents too if they're just a few weeks or a month away from a growth spurt or a new milestone happening um to just be patient. They're going to do all this work, you know, we've we've we've cleared some tension, we've worked on their nervous system, we've released the ties, we've done the stretches. When they hit their next growth spurt, that tissue that again was fully formed by 20 weeks in the belly can pull back to their old pattern even though they're so tiny. And so when that happens, don't be discouraged. They're growing quickly. It's an old pattern. We're going to walk them through that again. Each time you help them repattern it, it pulls back less and then they become more and more functional as they grow. Yeah. Because pathways in our brain, we're always trying to go back how it was before. We're trying to recreate. So, so don't be discouraged. We're not going back to square one. I see that. I see that. And that's what I I reiterate with my patients all the time. It's process. Yeah. Yeah. What about unique stories, guys? Have you had any kind of outstanding story? I'm sure you have. Gosh, absolutely. Back of highlighting. I'm like, which one? I know. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Um, my brain is just Well, a few years ago Mhm. one comes to mind and we and we co-car this person's a few years ago. This little one literally screamed for hours, like 24 hours a day almost. Yes. Not okay. I know what you're talking. So much so that Nikki, my my now has become my friend, right, which is amazing. She's she does such a great job. And so so my wonderful friend over here, in the kindness of her heart and her niku nurse and all the heart and all the things, this baby was so much. These parents were so just tattered. Do you remember what you did? Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. Do you want to say it or you want me to say it? She was like, they didn't have family around. They had no one. And they had seen me probably two visits maybe by that time. She saw it in their heads and I could they just were so beaten down. And I I said to them, I said, "Do you trust me?" And they said, "Absolutely." And I said, "Would you two like to go and get yourself some coffee?" I had even finished the sentence and they were out the door. Right. And they left the baby. They left the baby with me. She's like, "I am actually qualified to it was on a Saturday. The office was dark and I walked the halls with this baby for 20 minutes and they felt guilty when they got back. They took too long and I just walked the halls, held the baby, kept him safe. Kept him safe just so they could have a few. They had never had a moment of peace and this baby was a lot. Y but we worked together. Yeah. So Nikki called and she's like this is what just happened and she's like cuz you know we're very specialty in our office perinatal pediatric and cranial function is very much an extra and it's all post-docctorate work. Okay. And so so it's it's kind of funny but but because of that like sometimes our exams can get scheduled far out. So Nikki called and she was like hey this is what just happened and I need this baby in ASAP. And I don't remember what happened but we figured it out. I don't know if I stayed longer. I don't know it was several years ago but like we got this kiddo in and again these poor these poor parents right? And so, okay, Nikki told us some stuff and now like occasionally we can get him to sleep or he'll at least sleep in our arms and we've been doing some of the stretches she showed us. And I'm like, fantastic. That's good. That's great. You know, we start working. We start adjusting and um this little one calmed down so much and their lives like from that coair like changed and they they saw Dr. All three of us. I remember the words. So, it's funny. So they actually um moved in this last year out of state, but I we stayed in contact. So mom went through a second pregnancy. So whole family ended up coming. They're like, I don't know what this voodoo magic is, but like we want some, too. Like first like yes, your nervous system also needs to come out of fight or flight. Let's work on that. Yeah. Because affect the couple. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, and then so mom had her second baby and was under care during pregnancy and all of that and you know had worked with Nikki and had all this support and so I remember you know they brought little one in you know second one so fresh and they're like this baby's so calm and they're like we didn't even know with our first like we knew how hard it was but we had no idea you know having that support through pregnancy having supportive and earlier and knowing exactly and knowing how to put baby on the breast the first time signs to look before like they were just like night and day. Yeah, they started care earlier. That was the key. I think sometimes people mom's like, I think I'm doing okay. I think it's all right. But then they realize 2 3 months in that this isn't right. Pain pain shouldn't be happening. Um my baby should be this tight, arching, shaking their head, preferring a breast. Yeah. So when we when we get a hold of them, and it's it's it's always my sad statement when I ask mom. I'm like, why didn't you come sooner? And you're like, "Because I didn't know any better. I didn't know about a lactation. No one told them." Exactly. That's why I'm creating this podcast cuz people don't know. Right. And when it's your first child having three, I know every single kid is different. And when you there for the first time, you have no idea what to expect. And your normal scale of normal can be very wide. my skill of normal. I remember my last child, I actually before I got into tongue ties, I had her right before my um residency, so extremely stressful time. So, she was two two months old and I was focused on pumping and I was nursing her as well. But she was a calicky, fussy, very difficult baby. Very difficult. I remember even Adrian, my husband would sit on the those yoga balls and he had to like jump half a night, right? Because that's the only way she would sleep, right? Yeah, she's tension over very very difficult and actually I later on when I got into tongue ties because again not everybody understand the tension the fascia is what we describe how it affect the baby and then at the age of eight I looked at her mouth I was like oh wait a second that is extremely tongue tie and she um she was interesting because she did have a white palette in addition to that but she was ted And then I released her and she kind of was interesting to observe personal experience. How did she feel? She actually had pretty kind of mild procedure. She didn't complain and she's the complainer. You made a good point about the tongue tie and and not understand not knowing it. Not knowing it. One of the things that I hear a lot that comes in my office is my doctor told me that my baby can extend its tongue out. It's not tongue tied. And I know why they say that because they teach us in dental school they teach us if you can't cross vermilion border the lower lip again nobody specific how big your lips are right what type of chin you have then you're not tongue tie so I explain so I always explain to my patients I said it's about elevation it's not about ex so much about extension it's about can the baby elevate the tongue separate from the jaw and pull your nipple and your breast tissue you into the mouth and later, right? Yeah. And later. So, whenever I hear the statement that if your baby is can extend its tongue out, it's not tongue tied, I always tell them that's somebody who is not completely educated in tongue ties and let's do a full functional oral assessment. I think that doing a and and I asked them, I said, "Did your did this person that looked at your your baby, did they get in their mouth and did they elevate the tongue?" They're like, "No, they just said that the tongue can extend." So, there's so much more that people don't realize that you really need a full functional oral assessment cuz you didn't know, right? I did. I didn't know. Well, they we covered very little in dental school and they show you like extreme case, right? Like extreme case when tip of the tongue attached to a lingual. Yeah. Antior complete ties. They show it to you that this is not normal and everything else you can compensate. That that's pretty much what they teach you everywhere. I don't know what they teach medical school. I'm sure even less than what we And you just said the right thing. I always tell moms we want competency at the breast, not compensation. Compensation. So you just said that everything else everybody can compensate. You shouldn't have to compensate for anything. You shouldn't have to use a tool. You shouldn't have to use a tool to thrive at something. Right. It should be able to be functional and be properly used. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a big part of it because we see my one of the like memorable experiences was I don't remember if I shared with you I think I did uh we released a child uh a year ago I would say and then I saw her at one years old checkup because you should see dentist at the age of one and mom gave me a hug and because I see a lot of patients I remember some but not everybody. Right. Right. And she gave me a big hug and she said, "Thank you, Dr. Olga, for saving my child from uh from feeding tube." And I was like from feeding tube and now and then after that I started to remember that she could not latch on, she could not nurse, she could not properly, she would not gain weight. So she was on the verge of going to straight to the she's going to failure failure to strive and they were saying either you're going to get feeding tube that's the next step we do that and we did the the tongue tie on that particular baby I'm not saying that works for everybody but we did that and it helped that that particular child and I was like oh my gosh I'm about to cry because that's we cry with our patients a lot. Oh, absolutely. Definitely. We got tissues right there, man. Cuz it's real and it's hard. And these poor women have struggled and they are fighting. They are they are postpartum. They are exhausted. They might have other kids at home. They're barely getting enough water and they're only drinking water and eating because they need to make milk, not because they thought about themselves. They're still bleeding for goodness sakes. You know what I mean? Or the C-section mom healing from a major abdominal surgery. shouldn't even be carrying that car seat, but they're they're going around the world doing everything they can just so their baby can feed. That's hard. So, they need to get the right people on their team to be like, "We recognize this is hard. We see you. We hear you. This is your reality. And we are going to walk next to you and we're going to get you in touch with the people, all the people you need on your team." Cuz it's not just one person. It is a team. Bring that together to support you, right? You and your baby and your home. Right. And it's so important. I remember Nikki, remember you saw you we saw a little girl and you heard the heart murmur. Everybody missed it. Yeah. Yeah. I always do I tell people, you know, from being a neonatal intensive care nurse. Um I always do head to toe on my patients always. And I'm uh very careful to make sure I'm listening and oscultating for the heart and the lungs. Um I've caught um heart murmurss multiple times. One had to have open heart surgery. That one that one I remember it was tetrology. She picked up tology and nobody picked it up before. I don't know how. I don't Yeah, I don't know how it got missed. Um Linda Malaysia I've had that had one baby had to have uh surgery for that. But yeah, I will always do head to toe. I'm always going to be a nurse first, you know, and because your intensive care unit. Yeah. Yeah. It's just embraed me. It's just what I do, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, but just I just love that we are coming back to us, all three of us. I just love the changes we've made for our baby. It has just been watching it grow over the years and seeing the changes for the moms and the babies and and seeing and getting the the comments back later of how much things it's changed their whole journey or save their journey. That is and and I always tell people I'm only your guide. It's you and the baby that were a that are able to do all the hard work. I just guide you and help you. And that's just one of my favorite things to do. True. It's amazing. Right. It's amazing. Yeah. Especially when you see them later on, how it changes life, kind of set them up right for the right future and success. And I was reading about uh TMJ. I noticed you do and I it was interesting for me because I for us as a dentist CMJ is like not much we can do, right? Oh, there's so much you can do. I know. And again, that's right. That's what are you told, right? Cuz like you can only know what you're taught, right? until right until you get out of school and you're like, "Oh, there's a whole other world. Let's keep learning." That's right. And that's why like that's why I just, you know, that's why we have three specialties cuz I was curious and I'm like, "There's got to be more." You know what I mean? Like it's kind of funny. But but yeah, TMJ is is amazing and there's so much uh upper cervical spine, cranial function, facial bones that that play into that um and into that function. So um yeah, again when we look at that big big players are again temporal bone and frontal bone. We already talked about how that can move the jaw side to side or cause it to deviate. Um we want to look at the musculature of course that opens and closes the mouth. Um there's a and you already know this but um the pallet is made of four different bones, right? So in the front you have your two maxillary bones and your actual palletine bones. Um, so when we're little and all those little sutures are open in the head, we have this big suture in the middle of the pallet called cruciate suture. It looks like a cross. Well, on the sides of that, way back by your top teeth, there's a spphenino maxillary suture. Yeah, there's lots of So your sppheninoid bone is a key key player in the head. So we always want to make sure that's functioning properly. And that's basically a butterflyshaped bone that sits in the middle of your head and your brain kind of sits on it. But because of its shape, it can torsion. It can move up or down. It can move laterally. And when it really gets torsioned, you'll see things like plagiiophille. If it gets tilted, you can see things like brachio. So those head shape issues, we want to look for that, right? Remember, yeah. But because of its location in the skull, right in the center, it connects to every cranial facial bone except for two nasal and lacrimal. So, so that sppheno maxillary suture getting that sppheninoid and those greater wings of that sppheninoid moving properly is a huge player nine out of your 12 cranial nerves pass through spphenoid including ones to the mouth. So even if we're thinking like glossophringial you know like that we need to make sure that's clear. We need to make sure that veagal nerve supply is clear. The vagus nerve calms your system calms your GI tract takes you out of fight or flight. So there's direct things we can do that release and clear that nerve supply and literally change the mechanics, but all of that super affects how the TMJ closes, how it rotates, how it glides, how it how it comes back to set in the joint, if it's being pulled one direction or the other, if it's clicking or popping. That's very interesting because we were taught in dental school. So technically um Tim J if usually it's a young teenagers girls sometimes boys but mostly females around puberty that's when we see for the first time TMJ complaints and I do see in the practice means it got bad enough to show up and we kicked in hormones which which amplified yeah which amplified it right because the receptors estrogen receptors are in the joint itself there's a lot happening y happening all of a sudden I see this girls and technically the official form of treatment is um mouse guard the night guard but night guard I can't put on the tin because they're growing so I cannot stop the growth plate from expanding so technically there's no symptoms I say uh sometimes we send them to TMJ specialist for pain management I think they destroy the injections and the join but what is the alternative it's actually would be very very hot conversation hot topic to discuss because right I would say 50% of girls would have clicking and popping in the joint and me as a provider right they need to come see you I I don't know what to say in this case I so naturally like you know chiropractic care and I'm not say that just because I'm a chiropractor because I'm not saying all chiropractic care takes care of that or treats that there's definitely fascial attachments and dural connections in your upper cervical spine especially at C2 and C3 three that affect TMJ function, especially C2, right? Goes through the head, but then there's also things from your pallet that reach all the way back to to that occiput. And so, we want to make sure those things are clear. So, you need to find someone who will work with your upper cervical spine, but that's not the top of our nervous system, our cranium is. So, you want to find someone who specifically does cranial work um and facial work. So, um around the time you're saying, we actually get more of our adult skull formation around the age of 12. And then again, hormones kick in. Usually, it's the same time in females that you see when they hit puberty when like a scoliosis will show up. Their parents will be like, "Oh my gosh, I put on a bathing suit this summer and we were like, "Holy cow, look at your shoulder blade sticks out and one hip is high and all the things." So, a lot changes in the body at that time. Um, and then we don't get our fully kind of set cranium until around the age of 25, which is around the same time our sacrum fuses and around the same time we get logic brain, right? So again, it's a big right. There we go. So there's a lot happening. So So that being said, though, even though we have more of the adult cranium, there's still so much function and mobility in there um to be worked with that if you can gain that function at that time, even better. Even better before a little girl starts cycling cuz then her body's going to go through so many stable unstable, you know, changes through the month. Um that it's good for her to get that ahead of time. But really what we want to try to do is get these little ones close to birth. If if we can get to them before 6 weeks old, it's a lot easier to get them back to the breast. It's a lot easier to get that function in their skull. It's a lot easier to get that development. I mean, shoot the posterior fontel is going to start closing around 4 months old and so in the cranium. So, we want to make sure there's function in the cranium before months old. And it mimics that's a funny time because that people be like, "My head baby's head looks flat." Their pediatrician said the back of their head's looking a little flat. I'm like their posterior fontell is closing. Give it two months. It's going to look better. And that's not the parents fault. That's they were told this information from someone that didn't know. So if we can get to them ahead of that better, but if they're already at that age, then they need to seek someone who specifically works with function of not just the TMJ. It's a whole cranial system that is affecting the TMJ. So it's it's exactly it's not just one joint. It's not just one. It's never just one thing. Yeah. Exactly. Facial. Just like when people talk to you and they're like, "Oh, so you just release that thing under the tongue and you're like, I mean, yes, but no, there's more to it. There's much more to it. More to it than that." And again, that's not like a judgment. Like, I'm not making fun of that. You don't you can't know what you don't know. And as soon as you tell people, yeah, and it also affects this, they're like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." But you you can only you know, even us as providers, at first we could only know what we learned in school and afterwards and living life and having kids and continuing it. And yeah, you learn. So technically TMJ girls with these problems can see a chiropractor who specializes in cranioacial adjustment. Yes. And that would be and here's the other thing. If you have a TMJ issue, frontal bone is likely going to be involved. The frontal bone also mirrors the pubic bone in the body. You have certain cranial bones that mirror other bones. Your temporal bones can mirror your ilia like the big wing bones in your pelvis. Your oxput and uh sppheninoid junction. they actually move together um and help move that flow of fluid around your head to wash and cool and debate your brain, debate your brain. But the occiput sphenoid um can mirror sacral function. Frontal bone can affect pubic bone function. So in those girls again, especially before they start cycling, we want to make sure this is stable. and check through their pelvis as well because if now we're going to start cycling, we want to make sure their pelvic floor is also stable just for their own life, but especially if they do want to carry a child later, and not everyone does, we want to we want to get that right the first time, of course, right? And not be making that up. But even if they don't, like I always tell people like if you're taking care of this whole system, I'm like 75year-old you was like, "Thanks. Appreciate that. That was really helpful." You know what I mean? And so like looking back in time so like it's it's all planning into the future. But yeah but yeah those are definitely things to look for. That's very interesting because you get some information but then clinical practice and you want to help and there's limited what you can do and piece of plastic in the mouth. I mean it's helpful but you well and if there's ever a mold I always tell people if you're going to have anything molded to your mouth holy cow come here first for a while. Let's get things stable and I want to see you the day of right before you get the mold because if we're having anything custom made for the mouth, that's where you're going to be held every night. And if we're held in that compensatory pattern, we're never going to move toward function. So, we need to get as much function as we can and then hold it there. And if it still feels like at some point that starts holding us back, we're going to take it out. We're going to keep improving function and we're going to remold. We're going to make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. It's a good idea. Maybe even after orthodontic care. Oh, with it or before it or or avoiding palatal expanders if possible like that can be done in a lot of cases, especially these babies with a high pallet. It's actually your maxillary bones internally rotated and it's an abutment joint, right? They don't bubble, they don't interate or you know, they just they connect. They just sit right next to each other. And so we want to make sure that can move and the tongue can get up there and continue dayto day to move that out. So we're not forcing a situation. Yeah. The palette is interesting to me because on on my side I see different type of ethnicities and sometimes you see certain ethnic groups I would say like north European regions narrow pallet always even with no no ties very narrow I think it's just a historically because of the congestion of the nose and everything else they already have those um um changes epigenetics And that's what affects them epigenetics. But then you see it's interesting um which may have some native Americans in them. They have the widest pallets and they can have complete tie. Yeah. Complete tie. I'm looking at the tongue. I'm like how did you grow this big pallet? I don't know because if you talk to orthodontist uh the genetics actually um kicks in and the way the bones are growing is determined pretty much with genetics. Of course, soft tissue plays a big role and you can manipulate it to certain extent. But when Rene is talking about those growth spurs, that's when actually that genetical makeup what they have. And it's always pausing for me because when you're practicing, you're observing and you in your head you have certain patterns. Okay. If you see this, you should see that. And sometimes when it does not match, it's very, right? Yeah. But then you have to ask. If you don't ask why, then you're not going to keep helping the people you need to help. Yeah. So, and we see the same thing um like in the cranial path world. We see that a lot with the Asian population. So, what's natural, what's normal, what's functional in an Asian population like you were saying northern European a high pallet. High pallet. Yeah. And you said that you said congestion which is exactly right. That maxillary bone when it's internally rotated you you have congestion but nothing comes out but you the baby's always selling for congestion. Yeah. You get gray circles under the eyes. Nothing can drain. So, we want to work on that cuz we also don't want the ears end up backing up. But again, like in the Asian population, it is normal and functional for the back of the skull to be a little more tucked in or a little more flat. So, um, again, around 4 months, several years ago, she's three now. Um, about three. So, um, but several years ago, this little one was about 4 months old. Um, mom's coming in and and um, dad is of Asian descent and mom is not. Baby's back of the head tucked in a little bit. Posterior fontel is starting to close. So, it's going to mimic that. Anyway, cranium's moving really well. We've gotten a lot of function in there, and she's being told she needs to be assessed. She needs to be assessed. They're saying she needs a helmet. You know, they're saying the back of her head is flattening. And I'm like, well, let's look at these couple things. Let's look at these indicators. Let's, you know, let's measure some stuff and um let's take into account her genetics. And I'm like, has anyone talked to you about her being half Asian that that there's function there? we don't want to be yanking that back out or we could actually cause a problem. And she was like, "No, no one said that." And she's like, "You know what? I want to wait. I see this function. I see her doing better. She's hitting her milestones. She's feeding well. You know, everything was turning into a really good rhythm even at a time of a sleep regression." And um you know, come 3 years later, like they made it through and even the pediatrician was like, "Oh yeah, she ended up not needing a helmet." You know, so just by good job on the tummy time. And I'm like, "Yes, tons of times." But exactly right. And I'm like, had they slapped a helmet on her, would they have caused stress in her nervous system? The likelihood in her case was yes. Instead of creating function and allowing her head to round out how it's meant to, it it could have caused a lot of stress in her specific case in her nervous system. And so, um, you know, the mom was, you know, actually really proud of herself and she should have been. I mean, she trusted her mom and that's my thing. I'll give you information and I'll give you the information to the best of the ability I have and you gather your information from all the people on your team and you decide and trust your mom gut. It's specific to that child. So don't let anyone force you one way or the other. You trust your mom gut specific for that child. It's a gift for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you see Asian population is very interesting. they predisposed to having um class three bite we call it when uh mandible mandible is very forward very forward because they have maxel deficiency a lot of times and then they have this kind of rotation and sometimes it's only surgical I mean we're trying to fix it earlier but we cannot really and back to your questions probably would be a good idea to start with right get some function get some function initially and see where we're growing because Then when if we develop class three and post puberty, there's not much you can do. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's the only surgical approach at that point. Yes, ladies. That's that was very cool. It was fun. I love the teamwork though. I I do. I love working with you guys. I love that you guys, you know, own the information. You've learned so well and that you've continued to also like search and reach out. And I feel the same way. Like I always want to learn from people who are good at their craft, who are good at what they do. who genuinely care about people. It's like I I love working with you guys cuz you actually care about the person behind the name on the paper, you know, and I love that. Who needs what and why they need it. We truly trying to help. Working as a team, we've just seen so so many successes over the years. It's just been amazing to watch the moms grow, their confidence grow. Yes. the babies pro, you know, just s be successful within breastfeeding, bottle feeding, um, unwinding, right? Unwinding and just becoming themselves. Yeah. And now I think now we see second generation babies. No, not second generation, but I think second baby, first second baby, third, second or third because we've been doing it long enough. And I think moms are getting better. Yeah. Recognizing recognizing which helps all of it, including eventual airway function and all of that. So, it's just it's longlasting. It's farreaching into their life. Yeah, there's so much behind it, you know, and and coming and seeing us and and being able to help answer some questions just to just to not feel alone, right? I want moms to come to us and feel like I I at 2:00 in the morning when I was looking you up, uh I saw you always middle of the night. always the middle of the night and they see the stories of other people that have been to us, right? I I love that they're like, I'm not the only one. I'm I'm not failing, right? And I can be successful at this. And I like that there's a team out there to help me, not just give me, you know, you know, I feel like I always tell families when you go to Best Buy or, you know, a store, you buy a TV, they give you a book, you know, an inch thick, right? and we they hand you a baby at the hospital and go, "Good luck." Right. Here's a healing. Good luck with that. Right. Right. Right. So now now they know that they have a team that can help them. And I think that's really really important. I think it's extremely important because you see moms in different stages of success or failure. And our goal is to bring them to be successful and for baby to grow well healthy life. That's why we're working together and providing the best care we can possibly do. Yes. Thank you girls so much for joining us. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I love chatting about it. That was fun. And we might do it again with the new information. sometimes something new comes up and our listeners uh guys if you like what we do if you like my podcast and want to see this guests again and ask all the question because that was a very hot topic about nursing about breastfeeding and about the future even TMJ we talked about this is very very interesting and we have this experts who can answer all the questions so if you like Please share this podcast with your family, your friends, and um like us and stay tuned for more videos. Thank you so much. Welcome to the Ask the Dentist podcast with Dr. Olga dog ear where your smile meets your overall